Seized S Series

[H48HPE]

back in February I started a thread about my 'Garage Find' Montego that wouldn't run. it'd not been started since 1993.

the owner put it in a garage and started it up every couple of months for 18 months till one day it just wouldn't fire (which he put down to stale fuel) he never tried to start it again till I came along in February.

After various suggestions etc in the original thread - I came up with the conclusion that the engine wasn't turning freely enough. Hence a new thread on how to sort it out...

These are the symptoms so far:

It will turn over at a reasonable speed with a new battery fitted, but the new battery soon starts to slow down after say 4 goes at 10 seconds a go and eventually wont turn it over at all (even though if I fit the battery to another car the same battery will start the car no problem). If you jack the front of the car up and put it in 5th gear you can just about (very hard struggle) turn the road wheel round, it kind of goes then gets very stiff - if you really pull on it it frees and moves a bit more then stops - and you continue like that..

I've had a friend look at it who knows a thing or two about engines (I think he did an apprenticeship at a BL dealership) his thoughts were that the main bearings had seized, he thought maybe the original owner starting it up at idle and leaving it may have lead to the oil getting full of petrol and the bearings being left running in a petrol / oil mix.

I wondered where to start with this, the Haynes manual seems to suggest you cant mess with the crank shaft while the engines in the car... I wondered if I could change the main bearings from under the car with the sump off? no idea what I'm doing here so suggestions would be welcome.

andy

[E_T_V]

What I'd do is this:

1. Change the oil and pre-fill the new filter.
2. Take out the spark plugs
3. Put 50ml or so of oil down each plug hole
4. Crank the engine till the oil pressure light goes out (will be easier and faster turning over with no plugs in it - but some oil will come out!).

If it then cranks over fine then you may have nothing to do except add fuel etc.

[H48HPE]

What I'd do is this:

1. Change the oil and pre-fill the new filter.
2. Take out the spark plugs
3. Put 50ml or so of oil down each plug hole
4. Crank the engine till the oil pressure light goes out (will be easier and faster turning over with no plugs in it - but some oil will come out!).

If it then cranks over fine then you may have nothing to do except add fuel etc.

I've tried that Dan (back in February), - now it just won't go. Its got clean new fuel coming through and it does spark (although the sparks are yellow not blue) I thought the yellow sparks might be because the starter is dropping so much voltage from the battery the ignition systems not getting enough current to do a decent spark.

Thats when this guy I know suggested that the main bearings could be seized.... don't know if I can possibly change these with the engine still sat in the car though....

Andy

[Russ]

Its unlikely for the main bearings to be seized as the engine is turning over. I would fill the bores with wd40 ,leave it for a week then gently bar the engine over (taking care not to be near plug holes as the WD will squirt out) change the oil then try for another statr and the rings should be free.
The other thing you should check/change is the starter motor as it could be at fault and giving you symtoms of a tight engine

[H48HPE]

Its unlikely for the main bearings to be seized as the engine is turning over. I would fill the bores with wd40 ,leave it for a week then gently bar the engine over (taking care not to be near plug holes as the WD will squirt out) change the oil then try for another statr and the rings should be free.
The other thing you should check/change is the starter motor as it could be at fault and giving you symtoms of a tight engine

I've had alsorts down the bores including diesel, redex, engine oil, WD40. Will try again this week...

The starter motor seems fine, I've swapped over a known good one with the same result. the engine is just so stiff to turn over...

I've had the battery charging up over night so I'll go and have another play now...

When a petrol pump fails; can it leak petrol into the engine? the original oil I tokk out was horrible, as it poured out it was thick as you'd expect but then the last couple of pints were very thin, wondered if that was petrol contamination?


Andy

[G Force]

If you jack the front of the car up and put it in 5th gear you can just about (very hard struggle) turn the road wheel round, it kind of goes then gets very stiff - if you really pull on it it frees and moves a bit more then stops - and you continue like that..

That does seem to suggest to me that the engine is tighter than it should be. You should be able to turn the engine easier than that by this method, although you do get the tighter / slacker effect as the each piston is approaching TDC on the compression stroke.

The crankshaft is the least likely point of seizure, I think the pistons / bores or the camshaft would be more likely. Camshaft seizure was an issue on early engines.

You could easily drop off the cam belt and turn the camshaft & crankshaft independently to give you an idea of what is happening. With the cambelt removed and the plugs out you should easily turn the camshaft or the crankshaft with one hand.

You can inspect the big end & main bearings by removing the sump, but ultimately if the crank is seized it is going to be damaged, so it is simpler to remove the crank with the engine on the bench.

Faulty fuel pumps can fill the sump with fuel yes.

[H48HPE]

That does seem to suggest to me that the engine is tighter than it should be. You should be able to turn the engine easier than that by this method, although you do get the tighter / slacker effect as the each piston is approaching TDC on the compression stroke.

The crankshaft is the least likely point of seizure, I think the pistons / bores or the camshaft would be more likely. Camshaft seizure was an issue on early engines.

You could easily drop off the cam belt and turn the camshaft & crankshaft independently to give you an idea of what is happening. With the cambelt removed and the plugs out you should easily turn the camshaft or the crankshaft with one hand.

You can inspect the big end & main bearings by removing the sump, but ultimately if the crank is seized it is going to be damaged, so it is simpler to remove the crank with the engine on the bench.

Faulty fuel pumps can fill the sump with fuel yes.

I'll try taking the cam belt off and trying this out - should eliminate one or the other. This is an early S series being a 1986 model.

I'm wondering about the fuel pump now - the oil although changed in february and the engines never run has a petrol smell aboout it when you smell whats on the end of the dip stick. how do you know if the pumps faulty, it seems to deliver fuel ok. if I take it off is it obvious that its failed - ie how would i test it off the car??

Andy

[G Force]

I'm wondering about the fuel pump now - the oil although changed in february and the engines never run has a petrol smell aboout it when you smell whats on the end of the dip stick. how do you know if the pumps faulty, it seems to deliver fuel ok. if I take it off is it obvious that its failed - ie how would i test it off the car??

Andy

Hi, If you were to take it off it would not be obvious no if it was faulty.

What you would notice is the oil level going up rather than down over time & heavy fuel consumption. It would be very unlikely for a faulty lift pump to leak large quantities of fuel into the sump when the engine is not running though.

The sludge in the first ammount of oil you drained could be just the particles of carbon and dirt that have dropped out of suspension as the oil broke down over the many years it was stood, leaving the thinner constituents of the oil above it.

[H48HPE]

I decided to have a look at the car tonight. Was going to take the head off - but first decided to look under the cam shaft covers.

pulled the cam belt off the wheel and tried to turn it. it was a 2 handed job, quite dificult to turn but it would turn.... A neighbour who plays with engines came over and he thought it was too stiff too.

I looked and one side of the cam shaft had plenty of oil around it, the other was quite dry. this seemed odd, so i watched whilst it was cranking over and there was oil flooding out of the one side but nothing out of the other... Can i take it that the oil ways are blocked and that the cam shaft has run dry?

picture attached

[E_T_V]

I'd be tempted to take the cam off/out then try turning over the engine again,. You'll get oil squirting out of the bearings but it'll prove if the engine is seized elsewhere or whether it is just the cam.

[H48HPE]

I'd be tempted to take the cam off/out then try turning over the engine again,. You'll get oil squirting out of the bearings but it'll prove if the engine is seized elsewhere or whether it is just the cam.

I thought the same, so I did something similar - with the cam belt on the battery wouldn't turn the engine over, but when i pulled the cam belt off the pully it turned over on the battery fine.

with the cam shaft disconnected from the belt the engine still seems stiff though, I'm wondering if its still got a secondary problem.

I also wondered why the oil ways to one side of the camshaft were blocked, and if the cause could have been a head gasket failure? if it was the gasket I wonder if one of the cylinders could have water damage? suppose the only way to see is to take the head off...

Andy

[G Force]

I also wondered why the oil ways to one side of the camshaft were blocked, and if the cause could have been a head gasket failure? if it was the gasket I wonder if one of the cylinders could have water damage? Andy

Hi Andy.

I don't think it is HGF, The reason why the centre & rear cam bearing journals are dry & the front is ok, will be the drilling in the centre of the camshaft has become partialy blocked or blocked with thick oil sludge leading to seizure of the centre & rear journals.

Oil is fed from the main gallery up through a drilling in the block & head to the front camshaft journal.

The best plan is to remove the cylinder head & take out the oil restrictor to make sure the oil gallery in the block is not partially blocked behind the restrictor. Fit a new restrictor or the old one if you don't damage it on removal.

If the engine turns ok with the head off then you can assume you have found the whole problem.

You will need to fit a new or S/H camshaft & carrier.

I recomend even if the engine is free to turn, still remove the sump to clean out any remaining sludge in the bottom of the sump. Also remove the pick-up pipe and clean the gauze. If you want to go further you could examine the Big end & main bearing shells.

Fit a new filter and fill with cheap oil & oil flush, run the engine until hot then drain the oil. Refill with oil & fit another filter.

Regards, Gary

[H48HPE]

thanks for all the help so far...

As suggested I'm now well on with getting the cylinder head off, the only thing left to do is remove the exhaust front pipe from the manifold and then take the head bolts out

Any tips for taking the exhaust off the manifold? it looks like access is a nighhtmare and its heavily rusted up. I've covered it in WD40 to help. is this usually a nightmare job?!

I suppose I could always cut the pipe off.

or is it easier to take the manifolds off the head? the haynes manual says to remove the head with the manifolds attached...

Andy

[H48HPE]

I've sorted it out now, managed to get it from under the car with a universal joint and a breaking bar... so the head is now off. The top of each piston looks ok - the bores are very clean and shiny bright metal.

you cannot turn the pully wheel by hand though... looks like it may be a main bearing problem? in addition to the camshaft issue?

unfortunately its looking increasingly like an engine out problem.

Andy

[G Force]

you cannot turn the pully wheel by hand though... looks like it may be a main bearing problem? in addition to the camshaft issue?

unfortunately its looking increasingly like an engine out problem.

Andy

Will it turn easily with a short spanner on the front pulley? If not then yes it could be engine out. If you have not already done so remove the alternator belt to make sure its not the alternator causing the extra stiffness.