Are Historic Race cars scrutineered to standardsof their day

[John C]

Looking at a vintage racing car, its roll cage etc. would no way be up to current MSA scrutineering standards of safety. I seem to remember someone telling me that as long as a car had been passed scrutineering and competed in the past then the car has 'grandfather rights' to keep on competing in motorsport events for ever more.

If this were not the case then masses of vintage cars would be outlawed every year as the regs get ever tighter year upon year.

For example, if a car raced in '75, presumably it would be scrutineered against the required standards in '75, if entered into a 2011 event?

Is this correct?

I have some saloons that raced at Donington in '83 (according to footage on YouTube), so I presume that they can continue to race? Would they need FIA belts, extinguishers and so on

There's no make, model or serial number on the cage at all (no markings whatsoever!) -more details of the car are here:
http://www.maestro.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=15649

Below is a fairly unstructured compilation of various snippets of advice from a similar debate on a different forum (concerning a Safety Devices cage in a Manta)

[John C]

Quote from MSA Blue Book:

Safety
19.14.1. Be fitted with a safety roll-over bar complying
with MSA requirements as specified in Section K
except for vehicles of Periods A - E inclusive. It is
strongly recommended that all vehicles be fitted with
safety roll-over bars.
19.14.2. Be fitted with currently FIA Homologated safety
harness to be worn at all times by the driver during
training, practice and competition u



Quote:
Period Defined Vehicles (Non-Rally).
A – (Veteran) Cars built before 1 Jan 1905.
B – (Edwardian) Cars built between 1 Jan1905 and 31
Dec 1918.
C – (Vintage) Cars built between 1 Jan 1919 and 31
Dec 1930.
D – (Post Vintage Thoroughbred) Cars built between
1 Jan 1931 and 31 Dec 1946.
E – Cars built between 1 Jan 1947 and 31 Dec 1961
(up to 31 Dec 1960 for single seater and two seater
racing cars).
F – Cars built between 1 Jan 1962 and 31 Dec 1965
(from 1 Jan 1961 for single seater and two seater
racing cars and up to 31 Dec 1966 for Formula 2).
G – Cars built between 1 Jan 1966 (1 Jan 1964 for
Formula 3) and 31 Dec 1971 that are no longer
eligible for current Competition.
H – Cars built between 1 Jan 1972 and 31 Dec 1976
that are no longer eligible for current Competition

My '83 car's cage isn't thick enough tubing for 2011 regs, but isn't there some caveat that as long as the cage complied with MSA regs when it was made then this is adequate? i.e. if I can prove that the cage was made in, say, '82 and that the cage was MSA compliant in '82 then this cage will be acceptable to a Scrutineer in 2011 (provided I produce the relevant docs/evidence to back it up)?

Quote:
The only exceptions to the foregoing requirements for
Saloon, single seater and Sports Cars are as follows:
1.5.1. Safety Cage manufacturers may make application
to the MSA for a Roll Over Protection System (ROPS)
Certificate to be issued.
Note: ROPS manufacturers wishing to make application
for such a certificate should contact the MSA Technical
Department in order to obtain details of the
requirements to be met and the fees payable. Subject
to these requirements being met a ROPS Certificate
will be raised and issued. Duly authorised copies of this
certificate containing a drawing, photographs, a copy
of the manufacturers declaration that the ROPS meets
the required regulations and a copy of the stress
engineers declaration that the design is capable of
withstanding the loadings specified in the regulations
must be available to event Scrutineers.
1.5.2. Each ROPS manufactured after 1.1.97 for which
the MSA or the FIA has issued a ROPS (Rollcage)
Certificate must bear an identification plate which
details the manufacturer and the manufacturer’s part
number allocated to the cage. Details of this identity
plate are to be i

[John C]

I've heard that a 38mm cage is now too small diameter for rally regs, but it would still be accepted by the Scrutineer who inspects the car prior to Logbooking it, if you can produce a certificate from the manufacturer stating that the Cage was built to the MSA specs that were in force at the time that the cage was made.

i.e. if Safety Devices say that the cage was made in '93 and the MSA regs in '93 only required 38mm min diameter tubing then the cage is fine.

Blue Book -Section K:
1.4.1. Specifications of the tubes used:
Minimum Material
Cold Drawn Seamless Carbon Steel
Minimum Yield Strength 350 N/mm2
Minimum Dimensions (Ø in mm)
45 x 2.5 or 50 x 2.0
38 x 2.5 or 40 x 2.0 (For roll cages/bars approved prior to 1.1.95).

If it's an SD cage approved before '95, it's fine. The onus is on you to prove it's an SD approved prior to '95 though. A cert with the cage number on would be fine. Alternatively talk to the scrut who'll be logbooking it - it's a few years ago now but I logbooked my car with a pre '95 cage but no cert as the scrut had a copy of SD's application book and checked the cage number himself.

I've just spoken to Ayron at Safety Devices and he advised as follows:

To determine the year the cage was approved, you will need to check what numbers are stamped onto it (look on one side of the hoop and also on the feet of the cage's legs). There should be the following info:
Product ID number
Works Order number

Each cage will also need a fitting kit and on secondhand cages this will often not be present as it is still in the old car. It's £75 for a fitting kit for a Manta (available from SD's eBay shop which is linked from their website):
http://www.safetydevices.com/shop

Most SD cages are FIA homologated and because of this, 38mm cages ARE still ok for new logbooks. Upon receipt of the serial numbers above, SD will provide proof of FIA homologation as follows:
Genuine certificate (recommended) £25
Copy of certificate: Free of charge

[Chris Y]

You'd be better off asking this at a proper circuit racing oriented forum, such as www.ten-tenths.com (the Racers sub-forum, or Racing Technology)