BLOG MY RIDE: Rally MG Maestro 1600 - Car B

[John C]

Thanks guys; I bought this stuff as it is made for engines of the right sort of era as mine (the car is '83 but the R-Series is pretty much a Maxi E-series from the 70s):

++++++++++++Classic Oils
Morris Golden Film Classic Motorsport SAE 15W/50
http://www.classic-oils.net/Product-...den-Film-15W50
£19.16 (£ 22.99 inc VAT)

+ bought some Millers Engine Flush for £4.99 inc VAT

Delivery £6.95 inc VAT

[Chris Y]

I used to use 15w40 semi. 15w50 would be good too, so agree with Dan above.

[E_T_V]

I'd have thought a 15w50 semi synthtic would have been the best choice. Something like valvoline turbo or similar.

[John C]

At present, the engine's compression is 70psi in all cylinders.

Chris is working on the car this week and advises that its key jobs outstanding are as follows the blue jobs are those that do need to be done if the car's to compete this weekend; the rest can wait!):

-Test engine (and test drive car round car park). Fuel pump is installed now (got some fuel hose from the stores) but needs fuel to test it (and needs Valvemaster adding to fuel before it competes again).
-Fit an Alu sheet over the top of the spare wheel well (to cover up fuel pump).
-Put oil down bores and re-check compression (to see it it is the valves that are leaking). An engine's compression is normally about 10:1 so any car ought to give about 150psi (but he has not yet checked in the manual what it should be).
-Do a cylinder leak test (I'm told that a cylinder leakage test is a far more accurate way of measuring losses, and will tell you if the problem is 'cyl head gasket' or 'piston' related, or if it's not leaking down that badly after all.
-Put an oil flush product in and then change oil to a suitable classic motorsport oil (I will mail order this to CR at CEME)
-Need to fit mudflaps (already supplied) on all 4 wheels
-Check timing with a light to ensure it’s OK for 95 Octane unleaded (or adjust as required for a Maestro’s normal diet of 97 Octane 4 Star).
-N/S rear cylinder was stuck (now freed off), but could do with a new cylinder in due course.
-Rear brake shoe Linings starting to come off on one side; OK for one more event, but need to replace it thereafter (and both sides will be changed to ensure there isn’t a braking imbalance).
-Needs some Welding around rear arches (fairly minimal though). It’s not on a stress point or the suspension mounting etc. so should be OK for another event.

[John C]

Gotta find some better oil for the Maestro now.

Nick recommends 20/50 mineral (not synthetic) for rally use in an engine of this era (70s/early 80s).


The following oils look about right (from the lowest performance application to the highest):

Halfords Classic Oil 20w50
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/s...egoryId_165581
£18.99 inc (shipping not offered?)

"Halfords launched Classic Motor Oil some years back. An utterly conventional brew rumoured actually to be Duckhams Q 20/50, it’s naturally available from all its stores nationwide. However the API CE rating the lubricant wears dates back more than 30 years and so this oil is really only suited to low performance vehicles of the 1950s and 60s like Morris Minors and similar. Straight grade oils for classics of the 1930s and 40s are also available. http://www.classiccars4sale.net/classic-car-how-to-guides/feature-articles/a-guide-to-classic-oils"

Millers Classic 20w50
http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_frame_CLASSIC.htm
£35.52 inc VAT + £7.95 delivery

Millers Classic Sport 20w50
http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_frame_CLASSIC.htm
£40.99 inc VAT + £7.95 delivery

Golden Film SAE 15W/50 Classic Motorsport Oil
http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/sc...&idProduct=411
5 Ltr £23.65 ex or £28.38 inc (+£3.95 inc VAT P&P)
25 Ltr £90.86 ex (free delivery)

Millers COR 20w50
http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers...MOTORSPORT.htm
£40.99 inc VAT + £7.95 delivery

[John C]

The engine compression is down to 70psi on all cylinders apparently, so we need to ascertain if it is the bores or valves that are worn.

I'm also considering using a treatment product:
http://www.maestro.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16006

[John C]

Some excellent advice from G200MSS #146...
http://triple-m.co.uk/phpbb/memberli...wprofile&u=544

Im running a solid state facet pump just now with no problems (Think its fast road spec so the cheapest and lowest psi rating). Theres a square hole cut out of the rear floor (under where rear seat would be infront of the spare wheel well) with an alloy box riveted in so the pump sits at tank level. The box has an inspection cover so its easy to work on when you open the n/s/r door.

Im now going to switch to a twin pump system. Ive bought 2 brand new competition spec facet solid state pumps rated at 4-7 psi so if one packs up I flick the switch for the other one. They will both fit in the existing box I think which would be handy! The 40's only need 3-4 psi so I have a malpassi filter/regulator to sort it out.

If your interested in pics of my current setup or the twin setup Im swapping to let me know and your always welcome to give me a call or ask advice on here.

[John C]

Here are the suggestions from my post on the British Rally Forum asking about where to locate the fuel pump:

I mounted mine in the boot, in a plastic adaptable box from an electrical wholsaler, and used plastic compression glands for the pipes to go through, instead of grommets. Seeemed to be ok, never had any issues at scrutineering.

+++++++++++
The pump should be mounted in an upright plane , near the fuel tank as low as possible. In a hatchback this means you will have put it in a sealed box if it goes inside the car. Just from memory , Facets can come with 2 pressure settings 3 or 8 PSI. A Weber will only stand 2 to 4 PSI , but I have always used the higher pressure ones & fitted a regulator just before the carbs so as to keep a good delivery rate right to near where it is needed .

++++++++++++
I've always had mine under the floor at the back slightly below the tank outlet so it effectively siphons into it.

++++++++++++
Mine also is at the back underneath next to the tank.
I was told red top type pumps push better than pull

++++++++++++
My pumps are mounted in the spare wheel well, in my Corsa. We've welded a divider across half the spare wheel well, then bolted a foam lined lid over the top, so it meets the regs, then re-located the spare wheel to where the rear seats used to be. Better centre of gravity too.

[John C]

The car was standing outdoors for a good few years but was recently restored and returned to competition.

On its first event it ran really well for the first half of the day, but then started losing power, conking out and being a pain to re-start.

Eventually it wouldnt restart. Upon strip down of the carbs, it was found that there was a fair bit of gel/jelly stuck in them which had sludged them up (and also in the fuel tank). One person thought it looked almost as if sugar or methanol had been put in the tank (which they believed would have this sort of effect on petrol), although I can't see why (or who) would have wanted to do this.

Any ideas on what could have caused it? Very stale fuel wouldn't go to gel would it?

[FYI, I got the following responses to my post above on the British Rally Forum]


"Very stale fuel wouldn't go to gel would it?"
Actually, yes. Leave fuel for a long time and gums form in it.

I've just cleaned out a tank from a car that'd been stored for 12 years - you wouldn't believe what came out - including the bottom of the tank being coated in a tar-like substance. You certainly wouldn't have wanted to run it without giving it a seriously good clean first.

Sounds like a jolly good clean is called for.
+++++++++
If carbs stand for a long time a white corrosion develops inside the carbs, once fuel mixes with it turns to a gel like substance that clogs the system.
+++++++++
John,
it's water in the fuel that has been stood. The algae, that is present as standard in petroleum, solidifies the fuel after mixing with water when stood
+++++++++
Bacterial infections in oils is common and a problem for industrial engines - we've had birds get into the sump and die, even after removal, they've infected the oil and it's that microbial infection that clogs the filters and breathers. There's no reason the same can't happen to petrol. Algae is nothing more than microbial plant life, not too dissimilar from bacteria, if you've got air getting to the tank (ie, a vent) then it's spores will get in, as will bacteria and fungal spores.

To be honest though, it's usually water that causes problems, we had a particularly cold winter recently, small amounts of water in fuel will precipitate out at low temperatures and this can gel. It probably happened over winter and was sat in the tank until you ran it, then it got sucked into the carbs.
++++++++++
The ethanol content in modern fuels can also cause problems with certain types of tank, forming a gel like substance as a result of reacting with the tank material.

[John C]

"The old mechanical pump is not required so it will be removed. We need to make a plate to cover the mounting and apperture for the cam operated lever."

Hi John,

We have already started work, we have made a blanking plate for the rocker box where the mechanical pump was mounted. We run a fabrication and welding course so we can deal with manufacture of metal work. This will be useful because we had another idea for mounting the solid state pump - in the spare wheel well and then covering it with a sealed lid. That way we can still access it without having to jack up the car. What do you think? The Maestro, unlike the Sierra and the Mini is a hatchback which presents the problem of placing the pump in the car.

The job will cost around £150+VAT for parts

Nick is probably right about the Blue Top as one of my colleaugues said today that Webers have a very low pressure tolerance on the float valves!

Cheers

graham

[John C]

He is right, in that a pump should really be mounted by the tank to push the fuel but that really is in 'proper competition mode'
The pump CANNOT be mounted internally.
Either under the car by the tank or at the front will be fine.

Dont go with that blue top pump it's far too powerful and may well blow the needle valve out the seat.

Cheers,
Nick.

[John C]

Hi John,

Its your call! The small solid state pumps may have to be fitted insdie the car to get them close to the tank, pumps generally find it easier to push than pull, a good pump has the adb=vantage that it can be fitted anywhere the weaker pumps will need to be fitted inside the car. You might need to check technical regs as not all organisers would like a pump inside the car icase of fire. You don,t want to be squirted with fuel in an accident. Fitting the pump upstream means that the fuel line through car is not pressurised.

I hope this helps explain the cost differnces - do you want us to source the components? The carb kits are quite readily available from a number of suppliers all are genuine Weber parts.

Let me know what you think

Regards

Graham

[John C]

Hi Graham,

Thanks v much for scoping this out.

Before we go for the pukka Blue Top pump, can I just see what you think of the following (which might be cheaper), please?

http://www.webcon.co.uk/shop/shopdis...ettor+Pressure
[the lower pressure of the 2 pumps is quoted as WFP502 Electric Fuel Pump runs at 0.17 - 0.31 BAR (2.5-4.5 PSI), flows at 90 to 130 litres per hour and is extremely quiet and reliable in operation. This pump is suitable for all single, twin and triple Weber installations without the need for an additional fuel pressure regulator]

Another one to consider might be this (which is very cheap):
Facet Solid State Replacement Fuel Pump 4.5 - 7 PSI
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Facet-Soli...item43a84d7ad3


FYI, I spoke to Nick Stafford (who gave you a ring on Thurs night) late last night and he advised that a cheap Facet fuel pump of 4-6 psi should be adequate for this car. I've also found that the 90 degree unions etc. are available on ebay (search for FACET FUEL PUMP), if that's any help.


BTW, I noticed that this place doesn't appear to list any Carb service kit for the WEber 40DCNF carbs:
http://www.webcon.co.uk/shop/shopdis...=207&cat=Weber
-have you found anywhere else that can supply the kits?

Regards,
John Clayton
ClaytonMotorsport.co.uk
ChristiansInMotorsport.org.uk

[John C]

We missed a Rally Sprint today because the car wouldn't start last night (despite Butho beavering away all afternoon getting a trailer for it, plumbing in a fuel filter to avoid more sediment, and finding fresh fuel for the tank), which was a great disappointment, but "that's motorsport".

I later spoke to Nick Stafford who thinks it might be that the sediment caused the mechanical fuel filter to pack up, so we're going to put an electric one in now.

I got this update today:

Hi John,

I have had a good look at the MGs fuel line upgrade and below is a ball park (but pretty accurate quote) to get the job done.

The most suitable pump would be the Blue Top Facet in line pump. This can handle 35 gallons per hour which should be enough. This pump does not need a very expensive pressure regualtor so is cost effective. The second consideration is fitting the solid state pumos that are small enough need to be fitted near the tank but below the tank! The Blue Top can be fitted anywhere so under bonnet is possible

The other items needed are:

length of fuel line
Clips
In line disposable filter (from Facet)
fuel tap
switch
90 degree union
2 X carb overhaul kits

Cost of parts will be £200 + VAT

If you are happy with that we can get the parts ordered and make a start

Cheers

Graham

[John C]

Made some progress; I've found the cars' former home -it was Mithril Racing
http://www.mithril.co.uk/ at Goodwood circuit.

Even better, Mr Chris Taylor (the boss) proferred that the cars were originally from the Austin Rover Rally Sprint ('83) before they bought them, confirming some excellent, accurate intelligence from several people (including Phillip Young and Nick Stafford -thanks Gents!) who suspected as much.

Has anyone got any info/program or photos from the Austin Rover Rally Sprints that used MG Maestros? I believe that it was only the 1983 event.

I can only find the following on the '83 event:

BBC Rally Sprint 1983 - Race
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_sS011854
[a thrilling MG Maestro 1600 race at Donington for celeb competition drivers inc. Mansell, Blomqvist, John Watson, Tony Pond, Derek Warwick etc. Part of the “Austin Rover Rally Sprint”])

This thread gives info on the '84 event (but this used Montegos):
http://www.maestro.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=11941